Grammar Lesson 9: Possessive Pronouns, How to Dress Like an American
Who would have ever guessed that Valdo and Michelle think that jeans and flip flops make a strange combination? Looks like we’ve just seen one more thing that makes Americans stand out. Note that this picture has got three Brazilians trying to dress like North Americans!
Oh yes, and grammar-wise, we’re talking about possessive pronouns. You might say, OUR comments to YOUR lesson.
PODCAST LINK: Grammar Lesson 9
Could you throw some light on the use of the determiners in Portuguese with the possessives, for example when Valdo says “Mas esse e o nosso conceito..” It seems to me I have seen a tendency to use determiners in Portuguese in situations like “o meu livro” “a minha mae” “a nossa casa” “o meu problema” instead of simply “meu livro” “minha mae” “nossa casa” “meu problema.”
Comment by Edward W. Schiffer — June 27, 2007 @ 10:11 am
Now that I look over this lesson again, I am wondering if these are indeed possessive pronouns. Are not the true possessive pronouns “mine, yours, hers, his, etc.” because these words can replace a noun or noun phrase, whereas the words like “my, your, our, their” do not. This then means that in Portuguese nouns can have double determiners, as in Valdo’s “Mas esse e o nosso conceito.” I cannot think of an instance in English or Spanish when this happens.
Comment by Edward W. Schiffer — July 2, 2007 @ 10:00 am
Edward, in all dialects of Portuguese you have the option of using the definite article as part of the possessive adjective or not. So, you can say “a minha mãe” as well as “minha mãe”. The difference is that, while in EP (European Portuguese, including African and Asian dialects) you use the former for normal possession and the latter for something / someone with which / whom you feel an emotional attachment. Thus, and EP speaker can say “meu amor” instead of “o meu amor”. In BP (Brazilian Portuguese, in most of its dialects) you can use either interchangeably, although in writing the former is more prominent while you find the latter more in the speech of certain dialects. In all dialects there are phrases, such as “seu idiota”, that in English would translate to “you idiot!” In Portuguese you would use the possessive adjective, rather than the subject pronoun, for this type of phrase. In any case, this is just one of many examples of how the richness of the different varieties of the Portuguese language shows by way of the details.
I hope this answer suffices.
Comment by Robert — July 3, 2007 @ 5:52 pm
Thanks for responding Rob. I’ve been out of town and running around and haven’t been able to get to the computer. Your answer, as always, is great.
Orlando
Comment by orkelm — July 7, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
Yes! Thank you Robert. As always, this site has cleared up a lot of foggy areas for me. Thanks to everyone for their efforts.
Comment by Edward W. Schiffer — July 9, 2007 @ 6:50 am
I think this lesson is misnamed. Aren’t these possessive adjectives rather than possessive pronouns?
Comment by Judy Wright — July 31, 2007 @ 9:34 am
Judy, You are probably right, we’ll just say that we are talking about possessives.
Orlando
Comment by orkelm — July 31, 2007 @ 1:50 pm
Using the article is more common in South and São Paulo than in the Northeast:
South of Brazil, São Paulo state, South of Rio State (up to Rio but not Niterói), South and West of Minas Gerais State, Sergipe, Alagoas [region 1]
North of Rio state (from Niterói up north, including Campus), Espírito Santo state, North and East of Minas Gerais State, Bahia, Pernambuco [region 2]
region 1: a Maria, o João, a Britney Spears, o George Bush, a mamãe, o papai, o fulano
region 2: Maria, João, Britney Spears, George Bush, mamãe, papai, fulano
in Rio: O fulano quis falar com a Maria. O papai gosta da Britney Spears.
in Salvador: Fulano quis falar com Maria. Papai gosta de Britney Spears…
(in fact, in Salvador they say painho instead of papai ;0) )
———-
the tendency in:
region 1: is to use the article with the possessive adjective preceding the noun:
”a minha mãe, o seu pai, a nossa casa, o teu problema ” are more common than
”minha mãe, seu pai, nossa casa, teu problema”
region 2: to avoid this article:
”minha mãe, seu pai, nossa casa, teu problema” are more frequent than
”a minha mãe, o seu pai, a nossa casa, o teu problema ”
the article is obligatory in possessives that go after the nown:
a casa dele, a casa dela, a casa de vocês, a casa da gente
in the writing, the article
1. should not be used with persons’ names: Maria, and not a Maria, de João, and not do João (thus, the formal grammar agrees with the Espírito Santo-Bahia usage)
2. is optional with possessives preceding the noun, but many professors find it inelegant , so in the formal writing: ‘’seu pai, nosso problema, meu amigo” is more frequent than ”o seu pai, o nosso problema, o meu amigo”. (Again the tendency observed in Espírito Santo and Bahia states is kept)
There are the same tendencies in German and Italian: in the North they use the article: il Marco, la Anna; in the written language these should not be used, but the female article is tolerated because it exists in Tuscany, so il Marco is incorrect, but la Anna is correct.
in Portugal, the article is almost always obligatory. but Brazilian usage is different.
Comment by Milton — August 2, 2007 @ 5:35 pm
Então, com a situação de usar os “possesives” se pode usar os “direct object pronouns” na fala do dia dia?
Comment by Amelia Crawford — October 4, 2007 @ 10:48 pm
Is the choice between ‘a sua casa’ and ‘a casa dela’ (’her house’ in English) simply arbitrary? Are there any situations or factors which suggest one or the other?
Comment by James Lander — October 4, 2007 @ 11:48 pm
Porque a gente poe “a sua bolsa” em vez de “sua bolsa” e “as suas ropas” em vez de “suas roupas”?
Comment by ryanc — October 5, 2007 @ 6:10 am
Aprendi esta diferenca com o espanhol mais acho que de todas formas se usa seu e sua para his/her muitas vezes. Fiquei um pouco confusa o semestre passado porque me parecia que ouvia e lia os dois formas.
Comment by Monica Mitre — October 5, 2007 @ 8:59 am
Finalmente sei soletrar a palavra “chinelo” no português!!
Comment by Kyle — September 25, 2008 @ 7:49 pm
Eu gosto muito vestir-me no jeans com chinelo. Para o povo que já foi no Brasil, o que são as maneiras de vestir lá que os americanos achariam bregas?
Comment by Eric — September 26, 2008 @ 10:42 am
No espanhol, além de dizer “mi amiga,” pode se dizer “una amiga mía.” Pode se usar essa estrutura em português também e se se pode, como é que se faz todas as palavras (mía, tuya, suya, nuestra, etc.)?
Comment by Erin — October 1, 2008 @ 8:20 pm
Fiquei triste não ouvir um exemplo do uso de ‘teu/tua’ no dialogo. Ouço isso raramente, mas gostaria de entender melhor o contexto em que poderia usar. Me parece que se usa quando ‘seu/sua’ seria confuso. No Brasil, eu usei para criar mudar a conversa de uma entre muitas pessoas a uma entre duas pessoas, ou seja, para ser mais íntimo.
Comment by Clyde Sheble — October 2, 2008 @ 4:27 pm
E você não pode dizer “tua bolsa” também? Como funciona o uso desse pronome?
Comment by Elena Bessire — October 2, 2008 @ 5:55 pm
hahaha… me lembro quando cheguei aqui e pensava a mesma coisa. Hoje em dia, faço o mesmo
Comment by Liana Depew — October 2, 2008 @ 8:35 pm
Is it always improper to use ’seu’ when you are talking about a third person? Is this only true to Brazilian portuguese?
Comment by Golden Dale Oehlke — October 2, 2008 @ 10:28 pm
eu acho que estou acostumado usar teu e tua como no espanhol, por exemplo posso dizer: “essa é tua mochila” ou “essa mochila é de voce”?
Comment by Eduardo Gonzalez — October 2, 2008 @ 11:57 pm
So what do Brazilians wear with jeans?
Comment by Marina Potoplyak — July 4, 2009 @ 5:44 pm
We learned these pronouns a while back in class… but I never realized that the “dele(s)”, dela(s)” formulation was more common than “seu(s), sua(s)”. Helpful.
Comment by Mary Slosar — July 6, 2009 @ 10:04 am
I hadn’t realize that ambiguity in Spanish. Thanks
Comment by Carlos Barrera — July 12, 2009 @ 5:58 pm